107. Designing for Good: Charitable Giving Strategies for Interior Designers with Mark Ostrom
Do you want to make a meaningful impact this holiday season beyond the typical client gifts? What if you could use your interior design skills to bring joy to families facing unimaginable challenges?
In this episode, I sit down with Mark Ostrom, the founder, executive director, and creative director of Joy Collaborative: a nonprofit located here in the Twin Cities that creates uplifting spaces for children with life-limiting conditions. Mark shares the story behind Joy Collaborative and explores how designers can give back in a way that's authentic to their talents and values.
If you're looking for a more meaningful way to express gratitude to your clients this year, or are toying with the idea of turning your passion project into reality, this episode will leave you feeling inspired. Mark shares how thoughtful, functional design can be truly life-changing for these families. We also discuss creative ways interior designers can incorporate charitable giving as a memorable gifting and marketing opportunity, and how even small contributions can create a powerful ripple effect of joy.
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What You’ll Discover from this Episode:
How Joy Collaborative transforms lives by creating functional, joyful spaces for families in need.
The far-reaching impact of removing barriers for children with disabilities and their caregivers.
Why designers should prioritize charitable giving that aligns with their mission and values.
Creative ways to contribute your time, skills, and resources to deserving organizations.
How to make your year-end client gifting more memorable and impactful through charitable donations.
The business benefits of incorporating giving back into your marketing strategy.
Mark's advice for designers looking to turn their passion projects into a reality.
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Full Episode Transcript:
Hey, designer popping in here real quick to let you know that the giveaway for winning a one-on-one coaching session with me is coming to a close. If you want to be entered, all you have to do is open up your podcast platform of choice, leave a rating and review, and then send me a screenshot of your comments.
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Hey, designer, you’re listening to episode 107. Today, I want to share a special guest with you, Mark Ostrom of Joy Collaborative, a Minnesota nonprofit organization that creates life-enriching spaces with life-limiting conditions. Mark is here to share his inspiring mission, how he’s navigated a multifaceted career in interior design that’s brought him to where he is today. And we’ll also discuss how you can incorporate charitable giving as a memorable gifting and marketing opportunity for your interior design business.
Welcome to The Interior Design Business CEO, the only show for designers who are ready to confidently run and grow their businesses without the stress and anxiety. If you're ready to develop a bigger vision for your interior design business, free up your time, and streamline your days for productivity and profit, you're in the right place. I'm Desi Creswell, an award-winning interior designer and certified life and business coach. I help interior designers just like you stop feeling overwhelmed so they can build profitable businesses they love to run. Are you ready to confidently lead your business, clients, and projects? Let's go.
Desi: Hello, designer, welcome back to the podcast. Today, I have a very special guest here to share with you. His name is Mark Ostrom and he’s the founder, executive director, and creative director of a nonprofit that’s located here in the Twin Cities called Joy Collaborative. Mark and I know each other from a past life working at a very well-known design and architecture firm.
And before I introduce Mark officially, I’ll just have to say, I don’t even know – Mark, you can tell me once I bring you on officially. But I don’t remember us having a lot of projects that overlapped or anything like that. But one of the things I do remember is your energy. And there was always this buoyancy to you that was noticeable.
So when I heard about your latest venture, which you’re going to be sharing about today, Joy Collaborative, it felt so appropriate and like something that I really needed to hear more about. So thank you for being here.
Mark: Love it. I don’t think we were ever on the same time sheet, but my recollection of you, Desi, and our times together was just like probably one of the most insightful people in the room.
Desi: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Mark: So just really able to, I think, listen deeply and come back with just some pearls of wisdom on projects. So that’s where I’ll go with you.
Desi: Oh, thank you. For those of you who are listening and not yet familiar with Joy Collaborative, Mark, can you introduce yourself briefly and tell us a little bit more about the organization to get this conversation going?
Mark: Sure. So thanks for having me. Hello, design community. Joy Collaborative is a consortium of volunteers. And what we do is we create empowering spaces for youth with life-limiting conditions. We do that, our tagline is really because every person just wants to be themselves and they want a space that supports that.
So we work with individuals, we work with single-family homes, we also work with larger program organizations, and we’ll talk about those later, to really help remove barriers and get people who may have been stuck into a place where they can thrive.
Desi: I love that. And thrive is such a key word for me. That is what I help my clients do. And one of the things that really captured my attention when I heard you speak about the organization on other podcasts and other platforms is the impact on the family as well. So hopefully, we’ll have time to dive into that.
Before we really get going, I want to give listeners a little bit of a roadmap of where we’re headed. So we’re definitely going to talk more about Joy Collaborative and the impact that you’re creating for those children and for the families. And then I also want to speak to how an interior designer, whether they’re a solo practitioner or have a larger firm, can really use giving back in their community as a marketing opportunity and way to help spread the word about their business in a really feel-good way.
And then I really want to talk a little bit more about your history as well and what has brought you to this point in your journey. Similarly to you, I’ve had some moves throughout the design industry. And I think as creatives, it’s really common to shift and change. But I also think it can be easy to use this against ourselves or discount the common threads that really are leading along a path that we can’t always see clearly from where we are today. So I’d love to dive into that a little bit more as well.
Mark: You and I had a little bit of an exchange beforehand. We talked a little bit about, I don’t know if the word pivoting came up or something to that degree. And I countered a little bit and I said, for me, it’s been more of an evolution. It feels like a transition between, rather than kind of hard turns.
Desi: Yes.
Mark: So my biggest frustration all along in getting Joy Collaborative off the ground is why the hell did it take so long to get here? Because I had the idea when I was in college.
Desi: Oh, I didn’t know that.
Mark: It just took a while for me to build the confidence that I needed and, to be honest, to build the network that we’re relying on now. So if we go back a little bit in the time machine, I was always kind of the creative kid in the room. I just loved gathering people to do activities or whatever. And I knew that there was something around kids that just really lit my fire.
And so my original degree is a music education degree from the university, where I wanted to be the coolest marching band teacher in the western suburbs. That was my dream.
Desi: I could see it.
Mark: I still visualize that dream. But, you know, going into another creative field where it is hyper competitive, and I really wasn’t the top in the room. And not that I am now, but it was really uncomfortable. And the competition and to be honest, the lack of jobs. When I was getting ready to leave school, it was very clear that this wasn’t going to be a long lived solution for me.
So I took a pause from that and started working various jobs. One of the jobs that actually became one of the legs of the stool for Joy Collaborative was, of all things, working at the dental school at the university. So my original job there was to hand write receipts for all the patients coming through the dental clinic, and there were a lot every day. And data entry of those and then working in the insurance team.
Well, eventually I started working with the cleft palate clinic there, which primarily served young people because it’s a genetic condition. So they’re addressing it with surgery and therapies and all things that were very expensive for these families who would be in the clinic for oftentimes years.
And so I became sort of their agent because dental and medical were both denying claims. You’re not a dental procedure, you’re not a medical procedure. And it was just horrible and ridiculous. And so I really leaned into advocacy there. And at the same time, got to really understand some of these families and the hardships that they’re up against.
And we can talk a little bit more about kind of the general population here in a second. But it was, you know, to be able to work really hard, have claims denied multiple times, end over end, and then to sit down with a family and pass them a check for like $10,000 and they start crying, because they barely made the mortgage. I mean, this is decades ago, and I still remember those times.
It was one of the best days of my life. And I ran into my boss’s office and I’m like, let’s do this again. How can we do this again? And so I ended up starting to teach other providers in the area. I mean, I was in my young 20s and was teaching other practitioners about, I don’t want to say tricks and tools, but the way that I built relationships with insurance companies in order to ease that, which is, I have to say, very difficult, because they are not normally inclined to want to pay for these expensive claims.
So I’m not going to sit here and bash insurance companies. That’s not something I do. But if we’re talking about kind of the combination of things that led to Joy Collaborative, my first built project, so right out of school, my first built project, I had the honor and pleasure of working on the team that developed the first Rainforest Cafe here at the Mall of America.
And I don’t know if you remember Desi, but when it opened in 1994, it was very typical to have two and three hour waits for dinner service. Wildly successful. And I’m not patting myself on the back or the team at all, my point of view on that is going there and watching people change.
Desi: Oh, full experience.
Mark: Watching people. But I mean, you know, you’ve been to the mall, it’s maybe a long morning or a long afternoon, and you’ve got kids in tow. And oh, wait, no, we got to wait all this time. And you’re waiting out in this concourse and people bump into you. And then people make that transition through the threshold and everything is changed. The 17 minute thunderstorm that would roll through and, you know, raging elephants and waterfalls and all that kind of stuff.
And for me, it was, yeah, it was about being part of this creative team, for sure. I mean, there was nothing like that team. The crazy stuff we got to do was super fun. But for me, I’ll go back to the interactions. And that’s why I got into design in the first place. You know, it’s about the interactions, it’s about the effect that we can have, it’s the support that we can bring. And it was just really magical to see that happen.
And then to see Disney buy Rainforest and it takes off and it’s global and whatever. But that, to me, just reinforced, like people love this. Not necessarily Rainforest in particular, but the experience and this ability to sort of transform in the moment in the snap of a finger. I mean, that’s one of the legs. It’s like bringing that kind of level of experience to the group that I talked about that I worked with in the clinic.
Desi: Yeah, absolutely. I remember my first Rainforest experience. When you say the thunder, right? I remember that. Absolutely.
Mark: Oh, yeah. I mean, to see Disney buy it was just, like people just going bananas was so fun. And the crazy design things that we got to do, you know, I was in charge of bamboo fixtures. And I’ll never forget, I was in charge of finding the most realistic fake fruit. So bananas, oranges, whatever. And, Desi, guess where they come from?
Desi: I have no idea. Tell me.
Mark: Okay, so you know the Japanese restaurants that have the plastic sushi out front?
Desi: Uh-huh.
Mark: Yeah, there are companies in Japan that make realistic looking fruits, vegetables, whatever. So we imported all this stuff from Japan. I mean, that was part of the project is like, you know, what can we do to kind of surpass things? So that’s where that came from.
I don’t want to say the dark side, but I want to because we’re talking to designers and you and I have kind of lived this ping pong effect of a career, when I had kind of run the trajectory of what I felt was my professional design career in commercial interiors and architecture, I was done. You know, we had ridden some economic cycles and I worked for a very large firm that went from 500 people to 150 people in six months due to economic downturn.
I’m like, okay, this is nuts. I can’t do this anymore, I have to get off this ride. And I had a very good friend at the time who was developing a custom furniture company. And if anybody knows me, I really groove on mill work. And so it was just a perfect alignment with his brand and what he was set out to do. I worked with him for a while, it went south. He was an over-promise under-deliver kind of person. And then I worked for a couple other furniture companies doing sales.
And as much as I loved the energy and interaction with people, the transactional nature of that job did not register with me. It was very hard for me. I had a hard time finding excitement in the work. It actually led to me getting a diagnosis of clinical depression.
So as much as you see all the wonderful things maybe at Joy Collaborative, it was really at that point where I was talking to my therapist and she gave me that news. And I just looked at her and I’m like, well, this has got to change. This can’t go on. She’s like, yeah. She’s like, you know what you have to do.
And I knew what I had to do. And that was dust off the business plan for Joy Collaborative. And not soon thereafter, I reached out to Make-A-Wish. They gave us a very challenging project. And from that, we got referrals and started a board and all the other things we can talk about at Joy Collaborative.
So I just wanted to give everybody kind of a deeper history of what you’re seeing and my biggest bone when people talk to me about Joy Collaborative is, oh, these projects are fun. I’m like, this is not about fun. I did not get into this work to talk about fun. Hopefully, we do great design work and people see that it’s exciting and energizing, all those kinds of things.
But the foundation is what barriers are we removing? What barriers are we removing? And how can we support these people through deep thinking around design?
Desi: Yeah, I think it’s interesting to think about distinguishing the phrase fun or the word fun from maybe joy. So I’m curious, this is a little off the path of our conversation, but how do you distinguish between the two and maybe the roles that joy plays in this process or in this organization versus necessarily fun?
Mark: To me, fun is riding a tricycle down your driveway. You can do that by yourself. You can do that with friends. If you’re talking about an interior space where you have to navigate, maybe you’re on crutches or in a wheelchair, you’ve got some health conditions or you’re depressed or whatever it is, throwing paint stickers on a wall might be fun, but it’s not functional. And if we’re not functional, I don’t see how we’re advancing you.
And that’s our goal is to advance you, because kids, I don’t care, I’ve worked with enough of them. It doesn’t matter what you look like, sound like, you just want to have fun. You want to have fun. You want to have spirited times with your friends and family. You want to advance yourself. And to me, that fun leads you to a higher place than just having fun in the moment. It leads you to a greater outlook of what’s possible for me.
Desi: Yeah, absolutely. When I think about those two words, fun feels very punchy, maybe in terms of excitement or it seems like chasing almost. There’s a compulsive energy to it. And I’m thinking about this in particular how we approach just our work days in general or the built environment of having those moments where there is some excitement or flash or bang is nice.
But I think it’s a very different tone or in-body experience versus joy, which has ebbs and flows. I don’t think that it’s a steady state or the point at which you reach, but there is more of this undulation to the emotion, but there’s a steadiness to it. And I’m sure that is part of what is really impacting these children and these families, is having some level of stability and kind of support.
Mark: A fun space and a supportive space, to me, are very different. And if we can support things like, let’s use the phrase creative play, obviously a form of fun, but something that is more supportive, it’s proven that it helps with your healing, whether it’s social, emotional, physical skills, building, whatever that is, especially for our audience that is primarily dealing with physical or other kinds of trauma.
So then I ask the design community, do you want to build a fun space or do you want to build a supportive space? Let’s work on the latter and then get to the first, but let’s not lead with fun.
Desi: Absolutely. Yeah, and I’m thinking about the confidence that builds from moments of joy and success as well, as maybe this child navigates the space and learns to develop new skills or strategies to support themselves or the parents interacting with the child and seeing the confidence and skill progression that maybe happens in the space and the joy and the confidence that builds from that. It feels like such a holistic approach versus something flashy.
Mark: You’re exactly right. And I had a great question the other day. Somebody asked me about our logo, what the heck is with your logo? And I said, yes, we support youth and the whole point of supporting youth, if you look at our logo, it is a circle and there’s things spinning in that circle. Whoever we’re serving is in the center of that circle and all the benefits are spinning out and spinning in. And so there is a ripple effect and you mentioned that earlier of what we can do.
So if we zoom way out for a second, and typically the people that we’re serving are in some form of crisis and maybe it’s no surprise to all of us, but I mean, you don’t have to go very far to find studies around 50% of the population is exhausted. So many people are sad. People are having trouble concentrating.
Okay, now let’s layer in a disabled person, a child into that. The horrific data behind that is 80 percent of families with an autistic kid ends in separation or divorce. There’s a whole bunch of extra stress that’s coming at you when these diagnoses come at you. So first, maybe your outlook for your kid has changed, which is really hard, and that can take a lifetime to adapt with.
Maybe because they need so much programming, we can’t have two jobs if you’re a double income family. If you are a single income family, how the heck am I going to get through this? My kid needs all of these appointments. I’ve got all these medical bills piling up, insurance isn’t paying for them. I got to spend time doing this. It just goes on and on.
So you’re packing all those different stressors into this dynamic relationship. And we’re focusing on a family, but the same thing could be true for an organization where staff is trying to support people in this environment and the environment is working against them. So now, all of a sudden, they’re not building trust. They’re not helping these kids get to the place they want to be.
So there’s just a lot to weed through. I feel like we spend a lot of time kind of really trying to dig into our customer base to really get at those essences of things and try to get people so that, you know, we’re never going to get rid of exhaustion. We’re never going to get rid of claims and things like that. But maybe through removing some barriers and maybe through getting you a supportive space, the dynamics can change between you and your kid, between the siblings. There’s always dynamics between the siblings. Oh, you can imagine all the different stories that happen.
Desi: Yes. Well, and I’m even thinking about the ripple effect into the community, right? Because we have adults that are caring for children that have a greater level of need than other portions of parents. And they, of course, are community members, whether that is in their professional role, or they’re maybe caretaking for an older parent, or they have friends that they no longer see, or, I mean, you know, organizations that they’re involved in themselves that are important.
And so really, just by the seed of supporting the child, there’s so many layers of support that just continue on and on, which I think is just incredible.
Mark: 100%. And I’ll go back to the middle of our circle. Like those people, those children that are in the middle of our circle, what do they want? They want to advance. They want to be seen. They want to go out. They want to have fun. They want to build relationships just like anybody else. And we need them. We need them.
Like I started this long before DEI was a thing. We need them. There are talents here. There are inspirations and insights here. And if we continue to ignore them or keep them isolated, because that’s their inclination when they’re in a bad space, I don’t mean physical space, I mean headspace, is that what we want as a community? I don’t want that.
The worst thing is if you keep somebody in that space, there’s something called ACEs, which are called Adverse Childhood Experiences. If those accumulate in you as a person, they affect your physiology, they affect your development, they affect your future.
Desi: They do, yes.
Mark: So all those compounded negative experiences, if there’s no way around them, if we can’t help at least eliminate something there, there’s permanent damage down to the DNA level.
Desi: Yeah.
Mark: So this ripple effect, yeah, it goes sideways, but it kind of goes up and down too.
Desi: Yeah.
Mark: The coolest thing is, you know, we see kids, families, whatever, change within a day of them experiencing their new space. One day to see a kid who’s more excited, more determined, more confident, is just remarkable.
Desi: Oh, I imagine. And I think that’s a good segue. We’ve talked a lot about who Joy Collaborative serves. Could you give a little bit more detail and context around how you create these spaces or what these spaces are and how you deliver them to these families?
Mark: You know, one of the things that got me really frustrated in working in sales is, you know, I’m sure many of your designers have been to those fun night outs where you do happy hour or something, and maybe we’ll do a social engagement activity beforehand.
And there was an example of mine and we went to a food bag stuffing event and we were getting done and I’m talking to our contractors and designers and I said, hey, I’ve got this idea for this thing. What if rather than us spending our time doing this, what if we take your specific skills and talents, group them together, you guys like each other. You just came off this project. Can’t we plant those in our backyard? Can we take them and really help a family or an organization that is stuck?
And so the collaborative nature of Joy Collaborative is folks coming together. So what we collect are, you know, design talent and their hours. That also includes the contractor who obviously is hugely important to our projects. Without them, nothing gets built. Subcontractors and the vendors. And then we’re surrounded by a whole bunch of volunteers in Joy Collaborative in general.
But it’s taking those talents, digging deep into the program. And you can imagine some of the projects we’ve done, some of these conversations are really uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. And people have to be transparent and open with us in order for us to really get into some problem solving.
Desi: I’ll just pause you there. I’m so curious, how do you create that safety for those conversations?
Mark: I have a really weird ability, people trust me. Somebody pointed out to me years ago, it never occurred to me, but people just trust me. I don’t know, I try to get people comfortable. Now it’s easier because people can see our portfolio, right? They can read our stories. They can see our end results. So they’re coming to this space, hopefully comfortable, or they’re referred by somebody who says, hey, this is a really good match for this organization.
So our process is we issue a survey, really getting into kind of the demographics, what the needs are, please outline for us, send us photographs and just floor plans, all that kind of stuff. But then there’s an interview process with myself and whoever's in charge on the other side of the project where we really get into the why.
Then we’ll bring a board member on board and we’ll go see the space in person because we’re bringing so many volunteers. I mean, a typical project for us has 30 volunteers. So we’re bringing all these volunteers to these spaces, we need to make sure they’re safe. So then we do a summary, we bring it back to the board and based on our capacity, then we determine which projects move ahead.
Once we do that, then now we can reach out to our design community. People have raised their hands, we keep a database of those folks who say, okay, this seems like the right vibe for this group. Let’s see if they want to work together on this one. Then we, aside from the client, we’ll talk about, hey, here’s what we’ve heard. Here’s the write-up that we’ve got, here are photographs, here’s the context of things. So that they’re already comfortable, we’ve already had conversations with them about, hey, we’re going to have conversations around bathroom use that are going to get really gross. So just get ready and let’s talk about them now. So it’s not gross when you’re in front of the person, right?
Or we’re going to be talking about vulnerable youth. We’re doing a homeless shelter here in Minneapolis for kids as young as 10. BIPOC, LGBTQ+, high trauma. Because they’re not having those conversations as often as maybe we are at Joy Collaborative, we need to make sure that they’re prompt and they have the language that’s appropriate in that context and to understand the backstory of what brought us to this place that we’re going to have this first conversation.
So then there’s a lot of why. I’ve been doing this new thing now, Desi, I don’t know, maybe you can try it or some of your designers can try it. I don’t even know where I caught it, but it’s the five whys. So why is Joy Collaborative? And I can tell you why. And then you ask me, why is that important? So we covered the second one, which is why is this important to anybody? Well, because we want a population that can unstick and move on.
Why is that important? Because they want to thrive. Why is that important? Because look at the situation they’re in and think about where they can become. Why? Because they want to be like the rest of us. That can go on and on. And I think it’s really exciting and I’m bringing it to projects now and it’s really fun because people have their different why. They come at it from a different why. What I just went through, you might have a very different take on it.
Desi: Yeah,, and I think so often, I mean, I think it’s human nature just to come to conversations and relationships with assumptions, our own assumptions, you know, or our own projection of what we think someone else would be thinking. And so I think in so many ways, that’s very similar to what I do as a coach, is just bring that neutral curiosity to the conversation and see what happens when we dig a little bit.
And that’s why I was so curious about the safety piece, because it’s about the room, it’s about meeting the needs of the child and the family, but it’s about so much more, right? And in being able to achieve that end result of having that finished space, we need to understand all of those why’s, right?
And it’s so similar to what I do with my clients where it’s, yes, it’s about your business, but it’s about all the things below the surface that are going to help create that outward result. So I was so curious. Yeah, and I keep using the word curious, it’s one of my favorite emotions to lead with. But yeah, I think that’s just interesting to hear your perspective on that.
And then once that’s all done, they have a finished space, right? Yeah, that they get to enjoy and really collaborate. It sounds like a collaborative process then within the family unit as well, is what I’m hearing.
Mark: Yeah. Anybody who’s involved in the care of that person gets interviewed if they’re willing to. So yeah, it’s parent or parents. Oftentimes, there’s grandparents or a neighbor who fall into the caregiver title. Siblings can be really dynamic and fun or not, depending on how the attention is working internally. Medical professionals, whether that’s a – If it’s a surgeon, then we’ll talk to maybe occupational or physical therapy to understand what’s happening there and what their treatment plan is and what their hopes are for the future for their patient.
If there’s a partnering organization for us, somebody who’s supporting us either financially or otherwise, like what did they want to know or learn or how can they best support? I mean, the ripple effects, I think we are just starting to understand how far it can go.
So an immediate example would be like we just finished, just posted it on Instagram today, Imagine Theater. It’s a bunkhouse playhouse for a girl who was a heart transplant recipient before she was one. Then when she was six, she started having breathing problems and had a quarter of a lung removed during Covid. So the isolation that happened with that, now she’s healthy and rebounding and now she does have to kind of watch her limits.
But to see her just explode with her sister, and because we’d interviewed her sister and we asked her sister, what do you want in this project, right? It wasn’t a, this is mine. It was, this is ours together. And because of you we got it, but you know, I’m not angry or bitter or whatever. That was super fun for them.
And to see her, I mean, we get messages from parents, you know, to see her take ownership and really become almost a leader at 10 years old of like, hey, this is how it works when you’re in my space, right? This is how we’re going to behave. This is how we’re going to treat it. This is really special. This is how we’re going to clean up. It’s awesome. It’s just awesome.
And then Desi, we could go on, but what’s really interesting to me about the programming stuff, and I feel like, cause our projects can take nine months plus. So we do spend a lot of time with this care team. And so there’s time for off conversations or like, oh, I never thought about this, blah, blah, blah. So we do this outdoor playhouse for a young boy who has cystic fibrosis and it’s about a space away from the home. We get a lot of that. I want to be away from my home, but still close. So it’s, you know, in your backyard and kind of in nature in that case.
So we get them closer to nature, which is awesome. So there’s a great healing checkbox. He wants to create a circuit that includes, you know, trap doors and zip lines and all of these things. And it’s just, his spirit was just lifted like you can’t believe. So the point of my story is we have our celebration party the day the kid sees the space for the first time. And his dad, who was very articulate but very quiet, I mean, very much an introvert, pulled me aside in the middle of, I don’t even know how many people were there. And he’s very choked up.
And I’m like, Tim, I haven’t seen you like this before. What’s going on? Are you okay? He’s like, yeah. So our son takes 40 pills a day. So he has to stay active because if one of his organs goes, he goes. I don’t know when you were in interior design school, if that was ever covered, but you could get knocked over with a stick. It’s just like, what? How? So it's just, you know, and then I get to share that with our team. And they’re just like, oh, my God.
It’s just so exciting to see when I say there are some ripple effects that are hidden to us. And even though we do post occupancy surveys, sometimes it’s going to take a while, I think, for that stuff to manifest.
Desi: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that is such a beautiful example of the work you’re doing in the community and how you are helping people. And it really brings me to why I wanted you to come on at this particular time.
We’re going to be at the beginning of November, and we’re thinking about the holiday season. And I really wanted designers who are listening to begin to think about how they could be a part of that ripple effect, with particularly their year-end gifting and reaching out to clients to say, hey, hope you have a wonderful holiday, whether it’s an active project or a client who is from the past, and you’re just keeping in touch.
I thought this would be such amazing timing to begin to think about, like how could I actually, in terms of speaking to the designers, incorporate some sort of charitable giving and giving back to the community in a way that’s related very much to design and the gifts that you have in the world, but through Joy Collaborative.
This is something that I’m always thinking about, not even necessarily with clients, but in my own personal life with giving gifts to my husband’s partners. I’m thinking, they do not need another nice bottle of wine. They are fully capable of going and buying a bottle of wine themselves. And so several years ago, we started working with different organizations, whether we adopt a classroom to fund a project in an underserved area of town or are contributing in some way to a nonprofit.
And certainly, I would love to use Joy Collaborative as our gifting mechanism for this year. But I really wanted you to be on here to talk to designers about how they could possibly consider contributing to your organization as part of either a broader marketing strategy or their client gifting at your end.
Mark: Okay, I’m bowled over here by what you just said. So that’s awesome. I appreciate the generosity, Desi, and we’ll figure out how to manifest something. I’m a big fan of co-creation. I don’t think we would be here if we didn’t recognize the people on the other side of the table from us in a deep way. And we’re going to be doing a lot more of that next year. Because I’m fairly new to nonprofit, I’ve been doing this for going on five years now.
But I hear stories, because now I’m in a different network, of funders, high or low, it doesn’t matter, who don’t feel appreciated, who just felt like somebody took a check and ran away. And that really resonated with me. I’m like, we can’t do that. I’d say the easiest thing to do would be to come to one of our events, catch the vibe of Joy Collaborative, meet our brandonista, who makes sure that everything is fun and aligned with what we do.
We do a couple events here in Minneapolis or the Twin Cities every year. We’ve got one coming up November 4th, called the Jingle and Mingle, which is a holiday event. And there’s parties and party games and really fantastic food. In the spring, we’ll do something called the Joy Social. And that is a completely free event for all of our volunteers, anybody who’s tangential to us, anybody who just even wants to learn more about us to come in.
Last year, we had a chocolatier bring in his custom made chocolates. We had a Broadway singer lift us up with some amazing songs. And we had the boy with the 40 pills talk about his project.
Desi: Love it.
Mark: So you’re going to hear from, hopefully at every event, somebody that has directly been impacted and benefited and the results that we have manifested together. That is a low cost, no cost, generally just show up, have fun, get to know the people who make this work happen, because it can be very inspiring.
I would say, you know, within a practice, if you want to mimic what you’re doing and do some kind of fundraising thing or create a team to do something and then we get together and celebrate that. I mean, that would just be unbelievable, Desi. If you want to reach out to a client and you know maybe they have some inclination to do some community support, well, let’s have a conversation.
And I’m not saying it’s just to write me a big check, although obviously that’d be awesome. But, you know, some people just want to know, they want to understand what we’re doing. They really want to hear these stories because then they can put their feet in those shoes and then they can understand, oh, I remember when I lived with this person or my neighbor or my cousin, and then it becomes personal. And then the emotions really get tackled.
Desi: Yeah. And I think that’s so memorable too, just I mean, of course you want to support the organization, but also a lot of times we’re thinking about client gifting or as a way to keep in touch and as a means to continue our own business. And so being able to leverage something that’s really memorable for the person who receives it and will leave a lasting impact, while also moving forward some of the goals that you have within your own business, I think that can be a great combination.
Mark: I mean, the one thing, Desi, and your audience will appreciate this, and it didn’t occur to me for quite some time, which is stupid considering how long we’ve been doing this. But somebody said your brand is so visual. A lot of these things are really abstract to me. Other nonprofits are just abstract. I can’t put my head around it, but I can see these faces and I can see what the before and afters are.
And I’ve only used this once and maybe a hundred times, but if you don’t love kids, we’re not the right place for you. Most people want to see kids advance. Most people want to see kids in a better place. So if for you, as a designer or part of a firm, instead of the bottle of wine or the flashlight or whatever swag you’re thinking about, maybe it is more of an experience and maybe we get together for dinner and there’s a donation made or maybe not at all. It’s just, let’s get together and hear about Joy Collaborative.
I mean, people will talk about that and remember that and it doesn’t have to be fancy. Our first joy party was basically over soda crackers. So, you know, yeah, we’re doing things that are a little bit fancier now, but it doesn’t have to be that. It can just be people talking eye to eye about these stories that we covered.
Desi: Yeah. And I mean, personally, I keep it really simple. I have a template that I use and it explains the organization and how the funds being donated are impacting that organization and speaks to that impact. But I’m even thinking about like, it would be so cool maybe if there was some sort of QR code that somebody could scan and maybe they’re directed to the site where there’s a recipient of this nonprofit’s services or, you know, embodiment of their mission speaking to the client or whoever’s on the receiving end directly. I mean, you could get really creative or you could just stay really simple too.
Mark: Okay, so Desi, I love you. You know I love you. And I’m going to go back just a step and say, yeah, we could create a QR code that goes back to our website. But what if we created your own page that you could send people to through that QR code that says, hey, I’m Desi, I’m going to embed a video of a project that was just done. I want you to see and hear. That kind of a thing.
Like we can do however people want to slice and dice. We’ve got enough content and we’ve got a great marketing team to figure out what those things are. But really think about the audience and where they’re at and this level of stress that I talk about. And the greatest mechanism to alleviate stress is to show gratitude.
And that is you doing what you just described, as well as the person, the recipient of who you’re ever sending this thing to. You know, we rely on the generosity of the public. That is nonprofit business all day long. So we have to talk about generosity from the public. We have to talk about grants because we certainly do that. We have to talk about foundations. So connections into people are awesome.
I can write grants all day long. Anybody here could help us write a grant, throw it over a wall and good luck. I mean, it is a gamble. But in a relationship business, like sales was, like interior design in a very deep way, that’s what’s super helpful. So those kinds of connections, those conversations are wonderful.
I mean, interior designers, yeah, you can go do this work yourself. I’ll show you a playbook if you want to go ahead and do this. I mean, it’s not easy to get a contractor to donate 100 hours worth of time. It’s not easy to get a lumberyard to donate $10,000 worth of material. I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m not saying don’t try. I’m just saying it takes a village and it takes the right people to line up to do the generous things that they do for us. And those all start with the one-to-one story connection.
Desi: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that really, stories are a piece of the built environment. And so this just becomes another way that you lean into story in your business and the way that you support community-based endeavors.
Mark: If we have time, I want to share this story with you because this is fresh news. For those of you listening and out of our region or otherwise, a year ago, just over a year ago, we launched having worked with other organizations that didn’t have the real estate to create sensory spaces. We created the Joy Mobile out of a transit van and launched it at the Make-A-Wish Walk.
By February, we were being invited to different indoor events. And by March, we were invited to the Minnesota State Fair, the second largest fair in the country. This year saw 1.9 million guests. We were a service that they were looking for in the community.
What we’re solving for, everything from PTSD to anxiety, stress, panic attacks, dysregulation. The stats that we have from the Minnesota State Fair, having seen 2,000 people, is 95% of our guests saw positive impacts within five to 10 minutes. So going from medium or high stress to low or no stress in five minutes at a very active environment.
What we are supporting and solving for is a common experience across the globe, across the country. The Joy Mobile should not be a singular unit. So next year will be really exciting as we see where we take it because the news is we had a download with the marketing team at the fair just to say, hey, how’d you guys do together? You know, we want to hear what happened.
We gave them our statistics. We gave them a number of stories about helping people in crisis. And they said, could you just write up a summary, Mark? You know, we want to present this to the board. Sure you’ll have it tomorrow. Two hours later, I got an email. Hey, the CEO of the Minnesota State Fair would like you to present to the board about your findings because we’re thinking this might expand.
Desi: Oh, that’s amazing.
Mark: Desi, I’ve been a state fair geek since I’ve been two years old. We went every year, if not more than once.
Desi: Yeah. And for those of you who are listening who are not from Minnesota or have not lived here, the state fair, this isn’t like a rinky dink kind of town, there’s one tilt a whirl and some corn dogs, right? This is a big deal. Just to give context.
Mark: This is a hundred to two hundred thousand or more people a day.
Desi: Yeah.
Mark: People travel to come to the fair. And this was our first year. We’re learning a lot of stuff. We got a list a mile long of things we could do better. But the fact that we could benefit these people when it wasn’t highly advertised is pretty remarkable. And some of the stories that we have and the comments that we got back are just heart wrenching and beautiful at the same time.
Desi: And that’s just from a five to 10 minute experience, which is pretty incredible and is really a testament to what it is that your creative brain is creating for people to experience.
And for anyone who wants to see the Joy Mobile, you can see that over on your social media and also on the website too, which we’ll link to and you can share at the end.
As we wrap up, I, of course, like I said, wanted to bring people on or wanted to bring you on so that people could become aware of the Joy Collaborative and think about it in terms of holiday gifting, whether it’s for Joy Collaborative. If you’re listening to Mark speak and you’re like, oh my gosh, this hits to the core. This is absolutely who I want to contribute to this season, for sure reach out to Mark.
But of course, I think we should just briefly mention if Joy Collaborative isn’t the thing that you want to partner with this season, Mark was talking a lot about mission and values, and I think that is a huge component. So whether it’s Joy Collaborative or some other nonprofit that you want to use as part of your holiday gifting, making sure that mission and values really align with your business and connect you personally and will connect with your clients as well.
Mark: 100%. And don’t feel like you need to be some megastar donor. Five, 10 bucks, if that’s a one time or monthly, it adds up. It adds up. And the reason that we are leaning – Desi doesn’t know this – into some significant fundraising over the next year is because I’m our one FTE. So the work that you see on the website has all been done by one full time paid employee.
So what’s that telling you is we’re stifled because I can’t continue to grow our practice. You couldn’t continue to grow your practice at a design firm with one person. So we have to be clever. We have to be smart about how we talk to folks, how we ask, and how we perform. If we don’t perform, all that’s going to go away.
So what I’m encouraging your audience to do is there’s a gajillion nonprofits out there, right? There’s 6,000 in Minnesota alone. So if Joy Collaborative doesn’t resonate with you, find the one that does, celebrate them and talk to people about it because they need your voice. Some of them don’t have a marketing team. They may not have an Instagram page, but they’re doing something that means something to you. So help them grow.
Nobody that I know in nonprofit wants to go under, and 30% do in the first five years. So if you find them, love them up.
Desi: Yeah, that is great advice. So for all the listeners who want to get a full scoop on Joy Collaborative and maybe even see some of the projects you’ve completed, what are some of the best ways to find you online?
Mark: Obviously the website, joycollaborative.org. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. Instagram, you’ll see some of our stories and videos and other aspects as well. So dive into our website, take a look at the stories, our joy rooms. Joy Mobile has its own tab and just explore. I mean, hopefully you’ll see kind of what’s resonating from what we do.
Desi: Absolutely. And then if there’s something specific in mind that a designer is dreaming up, is it okay for them to just reach out to you directly?
Mark: 100%.
Desi: Okay. And LinkedIn or through the website, what’s the best way?
Mark: My email address is on our contact page, just do that or give me a call. You mentioned about support, and the design community is awesome because you never know where things are going to spark and grow. But I’m sure you know, many of our friends who have that side hustle or turn that side hustle into a thing. And some of those designers will donate some of their goods and services.
Desi: Yes.
Mark: That’s another way too, just donate your time. But if you’ve got a cool side business and it’s something that, I mean most of the designers do things that are pretty cool. I don’t have to worry about getting a crocheted potholder. No offense to those of you who are doing that, but you know, they’re usually pretty creative endeavors. And then we can use that to, you know, silent auction items or promote in other ways.
So if you’ve got those kinds of things, reach out too. Because, to your point earlier, we are really leaning into experiences over stuff. And so things that are cool, like handmade jewelry, are far more interesting to our audience than, I don’t know, a basket of fruit. So things that we can tell stories about too, or where there’s a personal connection or whatever. I mean, that’s another great way that we’ve gotten support.
So plenty of options here for your listeners to think about, or just call me. Like if you want to shoot some ideas or something here resonated with you and just wanted to ask your why, ring me up.
Desi: Oh, all right. That sounds good. We’ll definitely put all of the links to those spaces that you mentioned in the show notes for anyone to check out. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you wanted to share or say that we didn’t get to?
Mark: I’m not in the position that you are Desi of being a mentor full-time, but I have done plenty of mentoring to other people in the design space. And I have two nuggets that I always share with folks. Figure out your business plan. You’re going to run wild with your emotions and that’s easy, and that’s what I did. But really work on your business plan. And then talk to other folks and really vet your idea out.
If you’re thinking about something else, I know so many people who’ve taken 10 years to get off and move on. If your idea resonates with people, get serious about it because you don’t know what your life might look like on the other side of that dream. And that’s my everyday joy.
Desi: Yeah, that seems like a great place to wrap things up. Thank you so much for being here, Mark, and for sharing your joy and your enthusiasm with all of the interior designers listening. And yeah, it’s been a pleasure.
Mark: Thank you, Desi. And thanks for the spotlight and thanks to all your listeners. And I appreciate any future questions that might come out of the group.
Desi: Wonderful. Well, for everyone listening, that’s where we’ll leave it today. And I’ll, of course, be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, I’m wishing you a beautiful week.
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Hey, designer, you’re listening to episode 107. Today, I want to share a special guest with you, Mark Ostrom of Joy Collaborative, a Minnesota nonprofit organization that creates life-enriching spaces with life-limiting conditions. Mark is here to share his inspiring mission, how he’s navigated a multifaceted career in interior design that’s brought him to where he is today. And we’ll also discuss how you can incorporate charitable giving as a memorable gifting and marketing opportunity for your interior design business.
Welcome to The Interior Design Business CEO, the only show for designers who are ready to confidently run and grow their businesses without the stress and anxiety. If you're ready to develop a bigger vision for your interior design business, free up your time, and streamline your days for productivity and profit, you're in the right place. I'm Desi Creswell, an award-winning interior designer and certified life and business coach. I help interior designers just like you stop feeling overwhelmed so they can build profitable businesses they love to run. Are you ready to confidently lead your business, clients, and projects? Let's go.
Desi: Hello, designer, welcome back to the podcast. Today, I have a very special guest here to share with you. His name is Mark Ostrom and he’s the founder, executive director, and creative director of a nonprofit that’s located here in the Twin Cities called Joy Collaborative. Mark and I know each other from a past life working at a very well-known design and architecture firm.
And before I introduce Mark officially, I’ll just have to say, I don’t even know – Mark, you can tell me once I bring you on officially. But I don’t remember us having a lot of projects that overlapped or anything like that. But one of the things I do remember is your energy. And there was always this buoyancy to you that was noticeable.
So when I heard about your latest venture, which you’re going to be sharing about today, Joy Collaborative, it felt so appropriate and like something that I really needed to hear more about. So thank you for being here.
Mark: Love it. I don’t think we were ever on the same time sheet, but my recollection of you, Desi, and our times together was just like probably one of the most insightful people in the room.
Desi: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Mark: So just really able to, I think, listen deeply and come back with just some pearls of wisdom on projects. So that’s where I’ll go with you.
Desi: Oh, thank you. For those of you who are listening and not yet familiar with Joy Collaborative, Mark, can you introduce yourself briefly and tell us a little bit more about the organization to get this conversation going?
Mark: Sure. So thanks for having me. Hello, design community. Joy Collaborative is a consortium of volunteers. And what we do is we create empowering spaces for youth with life-limiting conditions. We do that, our tagline is really because every person just wants to be themselves and they want a space that supports that.
So we work with individuals, we work with single-family homes, we also work with larger program organizations, and we’ll talk about those later, to really help remove barriers and get people who may have been stuck into a place where they can thrive.
Desi: I love that. And thrive is such a key word for me. That is what I help my clients do. And one of the things that really captured my attention when I heard you speak about the organization on other podcasts and other platforms is the impact on the family as well. So hopefully, we’ll have time to dive into that.
Before we really get going, I want to give listeners a little bit of a roadmap of where we’re headed. So we’re definitely going to talk more about Joy Collaborative and the impact that you’re creating for those children and for the families. And then I also want to speak to how an interior designer, whether they’re a solo practitioner or have a larger firm, can really use giving back in their community as a marketing opportunity and way to help spread the word about their business in a really feel-good way.
And then I really want to talk a little bit more about your history as well and what has brought you to this point in your journey. Similarly to you, I’ve had some moves throughout the design industry. And I think as creatives, it’s really common to shift and change. But I also think it can be easy to use this against ourselves or discount the common threads that really are leading along a path that we can’t always see clearly from where we are today. So I’d love to dive into that a little bit more as well.
Mark: You and I had a little bit of an exchange beforehand. We talked a little bit about, I don’t know if the word pivoting came up or something to that degree. And I countered a little bit and I said, for me, it’s been more of an evolution. It feels like a transition between, rather than kind of hard turns.
Desi: Yes.
Mark: So my biggest frustration all along in getting Joy Collaborative off the ground is why the hell did it take so long to get here? Because I had the idea when I was in college.
Desi: Oh, I didn’t know that.
Mark: It just took a while for me to build the confidence that I needed and, to be honest, to build the network that we’re relying on now. So if we go back a little bit in the time machine, I was always kind of the creative kid in the room. I just loved gathering people to do activities or whatever. And I knew that there was something around kids that just really lit my fire.
And so my original degree is a music education degree from the university, where I wanted to be the coolest marching band teacher in the western suburbs. That was my dream.
Desi: I could see it.
Mark: I still visualize that dream. But, you know, going into another creative field where it is hyper competitive, and I really wasn’t the top in the room. And not that I am now, but it was really uncomfortable. And the competition and to be honest, the lack of jobs. When I was getting ready to leave school, it was very clear that this wasn’t going to be a long lived solution for me.
So I took a pause from that and started working various jobs. One of the jobs that actually became one of the legs of the stool for Joy Collaborative was, of all things, working at the dental school at the university. So my original job there was to hand write receipts for all the patients coming through the dental clinic, and there were a lot every day. And data entry of those and then working in the insurance team.
Well, eventually I started working with the cleft palate clinic there, which primarily served young people because it’s a genetic condition. So they’re addressing it with surgery and therapies and all things that were very expensive for these families who would be in the clinic for oftentimes years.
And so I became sort of their agent because dental and medical were both denying claims. You’re not a dental procedure, you’re not a medical procedure. And it was just horrible and ridiculous. And so I really leaned into advocacy there. And at the same time, got to really understand some of these families and the hardships that they’re up against.
And we can talk a little bit more about kind of the general population here in a second. But it was, you know, to be able to work really hard, have claims denied multiple times, end over end, and then to sit down with a family and pass them a check for like $10,000 and they start crying, because they barely made the mortgage. I mean, this is decades ago, and I still remember those times.
It was one of the best days of my life. And I ran into my boss’s office and I’m like, let’s do this again. How can we do this again? And so I ended up starting to teach other providers in the area. I mean, I was in my young 20s and was teaching other practitioners about, I don’t want to say tricks and tools, but the way that I built relationships with insurance companies in order to ease that, which is, I have to say, very difficult, because they are not normally inclined to want to pay for these expensive claims.
So I’m not going to sit here and bash insurance companies. That’s not something I do. But if we’re talking about kind of the combination of things that led to Joy Collaborative, my first built project, so right out of school, my first built project, I had the honor and pleasure of working on the team that developed the first Rainforest Cafe here at the Mall of America.
And I don’t know if you remember Desi, but when it opened in 1994, it was very typical to have two and three hour waits for dinner service. Wildly successful. And I’m not patting myself on the back or the team at all, my point of view on that is going there and watching people change.
Desi: Oh, full experience.
Mark: Watching people. But I mean, you know, you’ve been to the mall, it’s maybe a long morning or a long afternoon, and you’ve got kids in tow. And oh, wait, no, we got to wait all this time. And you’re waiting out in this concourse and people bump into you. And then people make that transition through the threshold and everything is changed. The 17 minute thunderstorm that would roll through and, you know, raging elephants and waterfalls and all that kind of stuff.
And for me, it was, yeah, it was about being part of this creative team, for sure. I mean, there was nothing like that team. The crazy stuff we got to do was super fun. But for me, I’ll go back to the interactions. And that’s why I got into design in the first place. You know, it’s about the interactions, it’s about the effect that we can have, it’s the support that we can bring. And it was just really magical to see that happen.
And then to see Disney buy Rainforest and it takes off and it’s global and whatever. But that, to me, just reinforced, like people love this. Not necessarily Rainforest in particular, but the experience and this ability to sort of transform in the moment in the snap of a finger. I mean, that’s one of the legs. It’s like bringing that kind of level of experience to the group that I talked about that I worked with in the clinic.
Desi: Yeah, absolutely. I remember my first Rainforest experience. When you say the thunder, right? I remember that. Absolutely.
Mark: Oh, yeah. I mean, to see Disney buy it was just, like people just going bananas was so fun. And the crazy design things that we got to do, you know, I was in charge of bamboo fixtures. And I’ll never forget, I was in charge of finding the most realistic fake fruit. So bananas, oranges, whatever. And, Desi, guess where they come from?
Desi: I have no idea. Tell me.
Mark: Okay, so you know the Japanese restaurants that have the plastic sushi out front?
Desi: Uh-huh.
Mark: Yeah, there are companies in Japan that make realistic looking fruits, vegetables, whatever. So we imported all this stuff from Japan. I mean, that was part of the project is like, you know, what can we do to kind of surpass things? So that’s where that came from.
I don’t want to say the dark side, but I want to because we’re talking to designers and you and I have kind of lived this ping pong effect of a career, when I had kind of run the trajectory of what I felt was my professional design career in commercial interiors and architecture, I was done. You know, we had ridden some economic cycles and I worked for a very large firm that went from 500 people to 150 people in six months due to economic downturn.
I’m like, okay, this is nuts. I can’t do this anymore, I have to get off this ride. And I had a very good friend at the time who was developing a custom furniture company. And if anybody knows me, I really groove on mill work. And so it was just a perfect alignment with his brand and what he was set out to do. I worked with him for a while, it went south. He was an over-promise under-deliver kind of person. And then I worked for a couple other furniture companies doing sales.
And as much as I loved the energy and interaction with people, the transactional nature of that job did not register with me. It was very hard for me. I had a hard time finding excitement in the work. It actually led to me getting a diagnosis of clinical depression.
So as much as you see all the wonderful things maybe at Joy Collaborative, it was really at that point where I was talking to my therapist and she gave me that news. And I just looked at her and I’m like, well, this has got to change. This can’t go on. She’s like, yeah. She’s like, you know what you have to do.
And I knew what I had to do. And that was dust off the business plan for Joy Collaborative. And not soon thereafter, I reached out to Make-A-Wish. They gave us a very challenging project. And from that, we got referrals and started a board and all the other things we can talk about at Joy Collaborative.
So I just wanted to give everybody kind of a deeper history of what you’re seeing and my biggest bone when people talk to me about Joy Collaborative is, oh, these projects are fun. I’m like, this is not about fun. I did not get into this work to talk about fun. Hopefully, we do great design work and people see that it’s exciting and energizing, all those kinds of things.
But the foundation is what barriers are we removing? What barriers are we removing? And how can we support these people through deep thinking around design?
Desi: Yeah, I think it’s interesting to think about distinguishing the phrase fun or the word fun from maybe joy. So I’m curious, this is a little off the path of our conversation, but how do you distinguish between the two and maybe the roles that joy plays in this process or in this organization versus necessarily fun?
Mark: To me, fun is riding a tricycle down your driveway. You can do that by yourself. You can do that with friends. If you’re talking about an interior space where you have to navigate, maybe you’re on crutches or in a wheelchair, you’ve got some health conditions or you’re depressed or whatever it is, throwing paint stickers on a wall might be fun, but it’s not functional. And if we’re not functional, I don’t see how we’re advancing you.
And that’s our goal is to advance you, because kids, I don’t care, I’ve worked with enough of them. It doesn’t matter what you look like, sound like, you just want to have fun. You want to have fun. You want to have spirited times with your friends and family. You want to advance yourself. And to me, that fun leads you to a higher place than just having fun in the moment. It leads you to a greater outlook of what’s possible for me.
Desi: Yeah, absolutely. When I think about those two words, fun feels very punchy, maybe in terms of excitement or it seems like chasing almost. There’s a compulsive energy to it. And I’m thinking about this in particular how we approach just our work days in general or the built environment of having those moments where there is some excitement or flash or bang is nice.
But I think it’s a very different tone or in-body experience versus joy, which has ebbs and flows. I don’t think that it’s a steady state or the point at which you reach, but there is more of this undulation to the emotion, but there’s a steadiness to it. And I’m sure that is part of what is really impacting these children and these families, is having some level of stability and kind of support.
Mark: A fun space and a supportive space, to me, are very different. And if we can support things like, let’s use the phrase creative play, obviously a form of fun, but something that is more supportive, it’s proven that it helps with your healing, whether it’s social, emotional, physical skills, building, whatever that is, especially for our audience that is primarily dealing with physical or other kinds of trauma.
So then I ask the design community, do you want to build a fun space or do you want to build a supportive space? Let’s work on the latter and then get to the first, but let’s not lead with fun.
Desi: Absolutely. Yeah, and I’m thinking about the confidence that builds from moments of joy and success as well, as maybe this child navigates the space and learns to develop new skills or strategies to support themselves or the parents interacting with the child and seeing the confidence and skill progression that maybe happens in the space and the joy and the confidence that builds from that. It feels like such a holistic approach versus something flashy.
Mark: You’re exactly right. And I had a great question the other day. Somebody asked me about our logo, what the heck is with your logo? And I said, yes, we support youth and the whole point of supporting youth, if you look at our logo, it is a circle and there’s things spinning in that circle. Whoever we’re serving is in the center of that circle and all the benefits are spinning out and spinning in. And so there is a ripple effect and you mentioned that earlier of what we can do.
So if we zoom way out for a second, and typically the people that we’re serving are in some form of crisis and maybe it’s no surprise to all of us, but I mean, you don’t have to go very far to find studies around 50% of the population is exhausted. So many people are sad. People are having trouble concentrating.
Okay, now let’s layer in a disabled person, a child into that. The horrific data behind that is 80 percent of families with an autistic kid ends in separation or divorce. There’s a whole bunch of extra stress that’s coming at you when these diagnoses come at you. So first, maybe your outlook for your kid has changed, which is really hard, and that can take a lifetime to adapt with.
Maybe because they need so much programming, we can’t have two jobs if you’re a double income family. If you are a single income family, how the heck am I going to get through this? My kid needs all of these appointments. I’ve got all these medical bills piling up, insurance isn’t paying for them. I got to spend time doing this. It just goes on and on.
So you’re packing all those different stressors into this dynamic relationship. And we’re focusing on a family, but the same thing could be true for an organization where staff is trying to support people in this environment and the environment is working against them. So now, all of a sudden, they’re not building trust. They’re not helping these kids get to the place they want to be.
So there’s just a lot to weed through. I feel like we spend a lot of time kind of really trying to dig into our customer base to really get at those essences of things and try to get people so that, you know, we’re never going to get rid of exhaustion. We’re never going to get rid of claims and things like that. But maybe through removing some barriers and maybe through getting you a supportive space, the dynamics can change between you and your kid, between the siblings. There’s always dynamics between the siblings. Oh, you can imagine all the different stories that happen.
Desi: Yes. Well, and I’m even thinking about the ripple effect into the community, right? Because we have adults that are caring for children that have a greater level of need than other portions of parents. And they, of course, are community members, whether that is in their professional role, or they’re maybe caretaking for an older parent, or they have friends that they no longer see, or, I mean, you know, organizations that they’re involved in themselves that are important.
And so really, just by the seed of supporting the child, there’s so many layers of support that just continue on and on, which I think is just incredible.
Mark: 100%. And I’ll go back to the middle of our circle. Like those people, those children that are in the middle of our circle, what do they want? They want to advance. They want to be seen. They want to go out. They want to have fun. They want to build relationships just like anybody else. And we need them. We need them.
Like I started this long before DEI was a thing. We need them. There are talents here. There are inspirations and insights here. And if we continue to ignore them or keep them isolated, because that’s their inclination when they’re in a bad space, I don’t mean physical space, I mean headspace, is that what we want as a community? I don’t want that.
The worst thing is if you keep somebody in that space, there’s something called ACEs, which are called Adverse Childhood Experiences. If those accumulate in you as a person, they affect your physiology, they affect your development, they affect your future.
Desi: They do, yes.
Mark: So all those compounded negative experiences, if there’s no way around them, if we can’t help at least eliminate something there, there’s permanent damage down to the DNA level.
Desi: Yeah.
Mark: So this ripple effect, yeah, it goes sideways, but it kind of goes up and down too.
Desi: Yeah.
Mark: The coolest thing is, you know, we see kids, families, whatever, change within a day of them experiencing their new space. One day to see a kid who’s more excited, more determined, more confident, is just remarkable.
Desi: Oh, I imagine. And I think that’s a good segue. We’ve talked a lot about who Joy Collaborative serves. Could you give a little bit more detail and context around how you create these spaces or what these spaces are and how you deliver them to these families?
Mark: You know, one of the things that got me really frustrated in working in sales is, you know, I’m sure many of your designers have been to those fun night outs where you do happy hour or something, and maybe we’ll do a social engagement activity beforehand.
And there was an example of mine and we went to a food bag stuffing event and we were getting done and I’m talking to our contractors and designers and I said, hey, I’ve got this idea for this thing. What if rather than us spending our time doing this, what if we take your specific skills and talents, group them together, you guys like each other. You just came off this project. Can’t we plant those in our backyard? Can we take them and really help a family or an organization that is stuck?
And so the collaborative nature of Joy Collaborative is folks coming together. So what we collect are, you know, design talent and their hours. That also includes the contractor who obviously is hugely important to our projects. Without them, nothing gets built. Subcontractors and the vendors. And then we’re surrounded by a whole bunch of volunteers in Joy Collaborative in general.
But it’s taking those talents, digging deep into the program. And you can imagine some of the projects we’ve done, some of these conversations are really uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. And people have to be transparent and open with us in order for us to really get into some problem solving.
Desi: I’ll just pause you there. I’m so curious, how do you create that safety for those conversations?
Mark: I have a really weird ability, people trust me. Somebody pointed out to me years ago, it never occurred to me, but people just trust me. I don’t know, I try to get people comfortable. Now it’s easier because people can see our portfolio, right? They can read our stories. They can see our end results. So they’re coming to this space, hopefully comfortable, or they’re referred by somebody who says, hey, this is a really good match for this organization.
So our process is we issue a survey, really getting into kind of the demographics, what the needs are, please outline for us, send us photographs and just floor plans, all that kind of stuff. But then there’s an interview process with myself and whoever's in charge on the other side of the project where we really get into the why.
Then we’ll bring a board member on board and we’ll go see the space in person because we’re bringing so many volunteers. I mean, a typical project for us has 30 volunteers. So we’re bringing all these volunteers to these spaces, we need to make sure they’re safe. So then we do a summary, we bring it back to the board and based on our capacity, then we determine which projects move ahead.
Once we do that, then now we can reach out to our design community. People have raised their hands, we keep a database of those folks who say, okay, this seems like the right vibe for this group. Let’s see if they want to work together on this one. Then we, aside from the client, we’ll talk about, hey, here’s what we’ve heard. Here’s the write-up that we’ve got, here are photographs, here’s the context of things. So that they’re already comfortable, we’ve already had conversations with them about, hey, we’re going to have conversations around bathroom use that are going to get really gross. So just get ready and let’s talk about them now. So it’s not gross when you’re in front of the person, right?
Or we’re going to be talking about vulnerable youth. We’re doing a homeless shelter here in Minneapolis for kids as young as 10. BIPOC, LGBTQ+, high trauma. Because they’re not having those conversations as often as maybe we are at Joy Collaborative, we need to make sure that they’re prompt and they have the language that’s appropriate in that context and to understand the backstory of what brought us to this place that we’re going to have this first conversation.
So then there’s a lot of why. I’ve been doing this new thing now, Desi, I don’t know, maybe you can try it or some of your designers can try it. I don’t even know where I caught it, but it’s the five whys. So why is Joy Collaborative? And I can tell you why. And then you ask me, why is that important? So we covered the second one, which is why is this important to anybody? Well, because we want a population that can unstick and move on.
Why is that important? Because they want to thrive. Why is that important? Because look at the situation they’re in and think about where they can become. Why? Because they want to be like the rest of us. That can go on and on. And I think it’s really exciting and I’m bringing it to projects now and it’s really fun because people have their different why. They come at it from a different why. What I just went through, you might have a very different take on it.
Desi: Yeah,, and I think so often, I mean, I think it’s human nature just to come to conversations and relationships with assumptions, our own assumptions, you know, or our own projection of what we think someone else would be thinking. And so I think in so many ways, that’s very similar to what I do as a coach, is just bring that neutral curiosity to the conversation and see what happens when we dig a little bit.
And that’s why I was so curious about the safety piece, because it’s about the room, it’s about meeting the needs of the child and the family, but it’s about so much more, right? And in being able to achieve that end result of having that finished space, we need to understand all of those why’s, right?
And it’s so similar to what I do with my clients where it’s, yes, it’s about your business, but it’s about all the things below the surface that are going to help create that outward result. So I was so curious. Yeah, and I keep using the word curious, it’s one of my favorite emotions to lead with. But yeah, I think that’s just interesting to hear your perspective on that.
And then once that’s all done, they have a finished space, right? Yeah, that they get to enjoy and really collaborate. It sounds like a collaborative process then within the family unit as well, is what I’m hearing.
Mark: Yeah. Anybody who’s involved in the care of that person gets interviewed if they’re willing to. So yeah, it’s parent or parents. Oftentimes, there’s grandparents or a neighbor who fall into the caregiver title. Siblings can be really dynamic and fun or not, depending on how the attention is working internally. Medical professionals, whether that’s a – If it’s a surgeon, then we’ll talk to maybe occupational or physical therapy to understand what’s happening there and what their treatment plan is and what their hopes are for the future for their patient.
If there’s a partnering organization for us, somebody who’s supporting us either financially or otherwise, like what did they want to know or learn or how can they best support? I mean, the ripple effects, I think we are just starting to understand how far it can go.
So an immediate example would be like we just finished, just posted it on Instagram today, Imagine Theater. It’s a bunkhouse playhouse for a girl who was a heart transplant recipient before she was one. Then when she was six, she started having breathing problems and had a quarter of a lung removed during Covid. So the isolation that happened with that, now she’s healthy and rebounding and now she does have to kind of watch her limits.
But to see her just explode with her sister, and because we’d interviewed her sister and we asked her sister, what do you want in this project, right? It wasn’t a, this is mine. It was, this is ours together. And because of you we got it, but you know, I’m not angry or bitter or whatever. That was super fun for them.
And to see her, I mean, we get messages from parents, you know, to see her take ownership and really become almost a leader at 10 years old of like, hey, this is how it works when you’re in my space, right? This is how we’re going to behave. This is how we’re going to treat it. This is really special. This is how we’re going to clean up. It’s awesome. It’s just awesome.
And then Desi, we could go on, but what’s really interesting to me about the programming stuff, and I feel like, cause our projects can take nine months plus. So we do spend a lot of time with this care team. And so there’s time for off conversations or like, oh, I never thought about this, blah, blah, blah. So we do this outdoor playhouse for a young boy who has cystic fibrosis and it’s about a space away from the home. We get a lot of that. I want to be away from my home, but still close. So it’s, you know, in your backyard and kind of in nature in that case.
So we get them closer to nature, which is awesome. So there’s a great healing checkbox. He wants to create a circuit that includes, you know, trap doors and zip lines and all of these things. And it’s just, his spirit was just lifted like you can’t believe. So the point of my story is we have our celebration party the day the kid sees the space for the first time. And his dad, who was very articulate but very quiet, I mean, very much an introvert, pulled me aside in the middle of, I don’t even know how many people were there. And he’s very choked up.
And I’m like, Tim, I haven’t seen you like this before. What’s going on? Are you okay? He’s like, yeah. So our son takes 40 pills a day. So he has to stay active because if one of his organs goes, he goes. I don’t know when you were in interior design school, if that was ever covered, but you could get knocked over with a stick. It’s just like, what? How? So it's just, you know, and then I get to share that with our team. And they’re just like, oh, my God.
It’s just so exciting to see when I say there are some ripple effects that are hidden to us. And even though we do post occupancy surveys, sometimes it’s going to take a while, I think, for that stuff to manifest.
Desi: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that is such a beautiful example of the work you’re doing in the community and how you are helping people. And it really brings me to why I wanted you to come on at this particular time.
We’re going to be at the beginning of November, and we’re thinking about the holiday season. And I really wanted designers who are listening to begin to think about how they could be a part of that ripple effect, with particularly their year-end gifting and reaching out to clients to say, hey, hope you have a wonderful holiday, whether it’s an active project or a client who is from the past, and you’re just keeping in touch.
I thought this would be such amazing timing to begin to think about, like how could I actually, in terms of speaking to the designers, incorporate some sort of charitable giving and giving back to the community in a way that’s related very much to design and the gifts that you have in the world, but through Joy Collaborative.
This is something that I’m always thinking about, not even necessarily with clients, but in my own personal life with giving gifts to my husband’s partners. I’m thinking, they do not need another nice bottle of wine. They are fully capable of going and buying a bottle of wine themselves. And so several years ago, we started working with different organizations, whether we adopt a classroom to fund a project in an underserved area of town or are contributing in some way to a nonprofit.
And certainly, I would love to use Joy Collaborative as our gifting mechanism for this year. But I really wanted you to be on here to talk to designers about how they could possibly consider contributing to your organization as part of either a broader marketing strategy or their client gifting at your end.
Mark: Okay, I’m bowled over here by what you just said. So that’s awesome. I appreciate the generosity, Desi, and we’ll figure out how to manifest something. I’m a big fan of co-creation. I don’t think we would be here if we didn’t recognize the people on the other side of the table from us in a deep way. And we’re going to be doing a lot more of that next year. Because I’m fairly new to nonprofit, I’ve been doing this for going on five years now.
But I hear stories, because now I’m in a different network, of funders, high or low, it doesn’t matter, who don’t feel appreciated, who just felt like somebody took a check and ran away. And that really resonated with me. I’m like, we can’t do that. I’d say the easiest thing to do would be to come to one of our events, catch the vibe of Joy Collaborative, meet our brandonista, who makes sure that everything is fun and aligned with what we do.
We do a couple events here in Minneapolis or the Twin Cities every year. We’ve got one coming up November 4th, called the Jingle and Mingle, which is a holiday event. And there’s parties and party games and really fantastic food. In the spring, we’ll do something called the Joy Social. And that is a completely free event for all of our volunteers, anybody who’s tangential to us, anybody who just even wants to learn more about us to come in.
Last year, we had a chocolatier bring in his custom made chocolates. We had a Broadway singer lift us up with some amazing songs. And we had the boy with the 40 pills talk about his project.
Desi: Love it.
Mark: So you’re going to hear from, hopefully at every event, somebody that has directly been impacted and benefited and the results that we have manifested together. That is a low cost, no cost, generally just show up, have fun, get to know the people who make this work happen, because it can be very inspiring.
I would say, you know, within a practice, if you want to mimic what you’re doing and do some kind of fundraising thing or create a team to do something and then we get together and celebrate that. I mean, that would just be unbelievable, Desi. If you want to reach out to a client and you know maybe they have some inclination to do some community support, well, let’s have a conversation.
And I’m not saying it’s just to write me a big check, although obviously that’d be awesome. But, you know, some people just want to know, they want to understand what we’re doing. They really want to hear these stories because then they can put their feet in those shoes and then they can understand, oh, I remember when I lived with this person or my neighbor or my cousin, and then it becomes personal. And then the emotions really get tackled.
Desi: Yeah. And I think that’s so memorable too, just I mean, of course you want to support the organization, but also a lot of times we’re thinking about client gifting or as a way to keep in touch and as a means to continue our own business. And so being able to leverage something that’s really memorable for the person who receives it and will leave a lasting impact, while also moving forward some of the goals that you have within your own business, I think that can be a great combination.
Mark: I mean, the one thing, Desi, and your audience will appreciate this, and it didn’t occur to me for quite some time, which is stupid considering how long we’ve been doing this. But somebody said your brand is so visual. A lot of these things are really abstract to me. Other nonprofits are just abstract. I can’t put my head around it, but I can see these faces and I can see what the before and afters are.
And I’ve only used this once and maybe a hundred times, but if you don’t love kids, we’re not the right place for you. Most people want to see kids advance. Most people want to see kids in a better place. So if for you, as a designer or part of a firm, instead of the bottle of wine or the flashlight or whatever swag you’re thinking about, maybe it is more of an experience and maybe we get together for dinner and there’s a donation made or maybe not at all. It’s just, let’s get together and hear about Joy Collaborative.
I mean, people will talk about that and remember that and it doesn’t have to be fancy. Our first joy party was basically over soda crackers. So, you know, yeah, we’re doing things that are a little bit fancier now, but it doesn’t have to be that. It can just be people talking eye to eye about these stories that we covered.
Desi: Yeah. And I mean, personally, I keep it really simple. I have a template that I use and it explains the organization and how the funds being donated are impacting that organization and speaks to that impact. But I’m even thinking about like, it would be so cool maybe if there was some sort of QR code that somebody could scan and maybe they’re directed to the site where there’s a recipient of this nonprofit’s services or, you know, embodiment of their mission speaking to the client or whoever’s on the receiving end directly. I mean, you could get really creative or you could just stay really simple too.
Mark: Okay, so Desi, I love you. You know I love you. And I’m going to go back just a step and say, yeah, we could create a QR code that goes back to our website. But what if we created your own page that you could send people to through that QR code that says, hey, I’m Desi, I’m going to embed a video of a project that was just done. I want you to see and hear. That kind of a thing.
Like we can do however people want to slice and dice. We’ve got enough content and we’ve got a great marketing team to figure out what those things are. But really think about the audience and where they’re at and this level of stress that I talk about. And the greatest mechanism to alleviate stress is to show gratitude.
And that is you doing what you just described, as well as the person, the recipient of who you’re ever sending this thing to. You know, we rely on the generosity of the public. That is nonprofit business all day long. So we have to talk about generosity from the public. We have to talk about grants because we certainly do that. We have to talk about foundations. So connections into people are awesome.
I can write grants all day long. Anybody here could help us write a grant, throw it over a wall and good luck. I mean, it is a gamble. But in a relationship business, like sales was, like interior design in a very deep way, that’s what’s super helpful. So those kinds of connections, those conversations are wonderful.
I mean, interior designers, yeah, you can go do this work yourself. I’ll show you a playbook if you want to go ahead and do this. I mean, it’s not easy to get a contractor to donate 100 hours worth of time. It’s not easy to get a lumberyard to donate $10,000 worth of material. I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m not saying don’t try. I’m just saying it takes a village and it takes the right people to line up to do the generous things that they do for us. And those all start with the one-to-one story connection.
Desi: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that really, stories are a piece of the built environment. And so this just becomes another way that you lean into story in your business and the way that you support community-based endeavors.
Mark: If we have time, I want to share this story with you because this is fresh news. For those of you listening and out of our region or otherwise, a year ago, just over a year ago, we launched having worked with other organizations that didn’t have the real estate to create sensory spaces. We created the Joy Mobile out of a transit van and launched it at the Make-A-Wish Walk.
By February, we were being invited to different indoor events. And by March, we were invited to the Minnesota State Fair, the second largest fair in the country. This year saw 1.9 million guests. We were a service that they were looking for in the community.
What we’re solving for, everything from PTSD to anxiety, stress, panic attacks, dysregulation. The stats that we have from the Minnesota State Fair, having seen 2,000 people, is 95% of our guests saw positive impacts within five to 10 minutes. So going from medium or high stress to low or no stress in five minutes at a very active environment.
What we are supporting and solving for is a common experience across the globe, across the country. The Joy Mobile should not be a singular unit. So next year will be really exciting as we see where we take it because the news is we had a download with the marketing team at the fair just to say, hey, how’d you guys do together? You know, we want to hear what happened.
We gave them our statistics. We gave them a number of stories about helping people in crisis. And they said, could you just write up a summary, Mark? You know, we want to present this to the board. Sure you’ll have it tomorrow. Two hours later, I got an email. Hey, the CEO of the Minnesota State Fair would like you to present to the board about your findings because we’re thinking this might expand.
Desi: Oh, that’s amazing.
Mark: Desi, I’ve been a state fair geek since I’ve been two years old. We went every year, if not more than once.
Desi: Yeah. And for those of you who are listening who are not from Minnesota or have not lived here, the state fair, this isn’t like a rinky dink kind of town, there’s one tilt a whirl and some corn dogs, right? This is a big deal. Just to give context.
Mark: This is a hundred to two hundred thousand or more people a day.
Desi: Yeah.
Mark: People travel to come to the fair. And this was our first year. We’re learning a lot of stuff. We got a list a mile long of things we could do better. But the fact that we could benefit these people when it wasn’t highly advertised is pretty remarkable. And some of the stories that we have and the comments that we got back are just heart wrenching and beautiful at the same time.
Desi: And that’s just from a five to 10 minute experience, which is pretty incredible and is really a testament to what it is that your creative brain is creating for people to experience.
And for anyone who wants to see the Joy Mobile, you can see that over on your social media and also on the website too, which we’ll link to and you can share at the end.
As we wrap up, I, of course, like I said, wanted to bring people on or wanted to bring you on so that people could become aware of the Joy Collaborative and think about it in terms of holiday gifting, whether it’s for Joy Collaborative. If you’re listening to Mark speak and you’re like, oh my gosh, this hits to the core. This is absolutely who I want to contribute to this season, for sure reach out to Mark.
But of course, I think we should just briefly mention if Joy Collaborative isn’t the thing that you want to partner with this season, Mark was talking a lot about mission and values, and I think that is a huge component. So whether it’s Joy Collaborative or some other nonprofit that you want to use as part of your holiday gifting, making sure that mission and values really align with your business and connect you personally and will connect with your clients as well.
Mark: 100%. And don’t feel like you need to be some megastar donor. Five, 10 bucks, if that’s a one time or monthly, it adds up. It adds up. And the reason that we are leaning – Desi doesn’t know this – into some significant fundraising over the next year is because I’m our one FTE. So the work that you see on the website has all been done by one full time paid employee.
So what’s that telling you is we’re stifled because I can’t continue to grow our practice. You couldn’t continue to grow your practice at a design firm with one person. So we have to be clever. We have to be smart about how we talk to folks, how we ask, and how we perform. If we don’t perform, all that’s going to go away.
So what I’m encouraging your audience to do is there’s a gajillion nonprofits out there, right? There’s 6,000 in Minnesota alone. So if Joy Collaborative doesn’t resonate with you, find the one that does, celebrate them and talk to people about it because they need your voice. Some of them don’t have a marketing team. They may not have an Instagram page, but they’re doing something that means something to you. So help them grow.
Nobody that I know in nonprofit wants to go under, and 30% do in the first five years. So if you find them, love them up.
Desi: Yeah, that is great advice. So for all the listeners who want to get a full scoop on Joy Collaborative and maybe even see some of the projects you’ve completed, what are some of the best ways to find you online?
Mark: Obviously the website, joycollaborative.org. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. Instagram, you’ll see some of our stories and videos and other aspects as well. So dive into our website, take a look at the stories, our joy rooms. Joy Mobile has its own tab and just explore. I mean, hopefully you’ll see kind of what’s resonating from what we do.
Desi: Absolutely. And then if there’s something specific in mind that a designer is dreaming up, is it okay for them to just reach out to you directly?
Mark: 100%.
Desi: Okay. And LinkedIn or through the website, what’s the best way?
Mark: My email address is on our contact page, just do that or give me a call. You mentioned about support, and the design community is awesome because you never know where things are going to spark and grow. But I’m sure you know, many of our friends who have that side hustle or turn that side hustle into a thing. And some of those designers will donate some of their goods and services.
Desi: Yes.
Mark: That’s another way too, just donate your time. But if you’ve got a cool side business and it’s something that, I mean most of the designers do things that are pretty cool. I don’t have to worry about getting a crocheted potholder. No offense to those of you who are doing that, but you know, they’re usually pretty creative endeavors. And then we can use that to, you know, silent auction items or promote in other ways.
So if you’ve got those kinds of things, reach out too. Because, to your point earlier, we are really leaning into experiences over stuff. And so things that are cool, like handmade jewelry, are far more interesting to our audience than, I don’t know, a basket of fruit. So things that we can tell stories about too, or where there’s a personal connection or whatever. I mean, that’s another great way that we’ve gotten support.
So plenty of options here for your listeners to think about, or just call me. Like if you want to shoot some ideas or something here resonated with you and just wanted to ask your why, ring me up.
Desi: Oh, all right. That sounds good. We’ll definitely put all of the links to those spaces that you mentioned in the show notes for anyone to check out. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you wanted to share or say that we didn’t get to?
Mark: I’m not in the position that you are Desi of being a mentor full-time, but I have done plenty of mentoring to other people in the design space. And I have two nuggets that I always share with folks. Figure out your business plan. You’re going to run wild with your emotions and that’s easy, and that’s what I did. But really work on your business plan. And then talk to other folks and really vet your idea out.
If you’re thinking about something else, I know so many people who’ve taken 10 years to get off and move on. If your idea resonates with people, get serious about it because you don’t know what your life might look like on the other side of that dream. And that’s my everyday joy.
Desi: Yeah, that seems like a great place to wrap things up. Thank you so much for being here, Mark, and for sharing your joy and your enthusiasm with all of the interior designers listening. And yeah, it’s been a pleasure.
Mark: Thank you, Desi. And thanks for the spotlight and thanks to all your listeners. And I appreciate any future questions that might come out of the group.
Desi: Wonderful. Well, for everyone listening, that’s where we’ll leave it today. And I’ll, of course, be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, I’m wishing you a beautiful week.
Thanks for joining me for this week’s episode of The Interior Design Business CEO. If you want more tips, tools and strategies visit www.desicreswell.com. And if you’re ready to take what you’ve learned on the podcast to the next level, I would love for you to check out my signature group coaching program, Out of Overwhelm.
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